loaf
Web Surfer
Posts: 14
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Post by loaf on May 2, 2023 1:30:01 GMT
Hi everyone.
Re: the discussion in the Say hi! thread, I put together a neocities website that anyone can make changes to via GitHub, located here: web-raft.neocities.org/. Right now it contains essentially nothing except instructions on how to contribute to it. I tried to make them non-technical, but I'm super familiar with Git, so things which feel obvious to me are likely not to everyone; let me know if anything's unclear. A few open questions: - People can either collaborate by becoming a contributor to the GitHub repo, or by submitting pull requests (which is a more complicated process). I have to manually add people as contributors -- let me know if you want me to add you (and pass me your github account). And let me know if any of you have thoughts as to the process by which more collaborators should be added. Right now I'm thinking of a guestbook-type situation where people request to be added
- What should the website be called? "web-raft" is just a tentative name, if people have any other thoughts
- There's this passage, in the summary of Yesterweb posted yesterday, that I've been thinking about:
So I've been thinking -- would a collaborative website serve the community? Though, given that the idea of the web-raft is in part to form new communities, I guess that question might not be fully answerable.
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sixeyes
Web Surfer
what's going on lol
Posts: 18
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Post by sixeyes on May 2, 2023 10:44:09 GMT
Oh, cool! Thanks for putting this together, i think it can be much fun! If you're ok with adding me as a contributor, my github username is free-ghz. Or maybe i should make a pull request first... ^^
Also, i've never used neocities proper, but isn't there a storage quota to keep in mind? And something about certain filetypes not being allowed... i think. Could be good to know before i try to push my 200GB .exe collection hehe
It's an interesting question, about the purpose of the thing. I think it's a good idea - it's something to do together, where everyone whos participating has some kind of joint authorship. Although yeah, you've taken on some administrative tasks already in setting this up (thanks!!!), and i imagine there are some things like approving pull requests and such that'll get messy if there's a lot of attention... But if you view it as an experiment of sorts, can we collaborate this way, are the tools and workflow allright, i believe it's worthwhile.
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loaf
Web Surfer
Posts: 14
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Post by loaf on May 2, 2023 11:41:02 GMT
Oh, cool! Thanks for putting this together, i think it can be much fun! If you're ok with adding me as a contributor, my github username is free-ghz. Or maybe i should make a pull request first... ^^ Also, i've never used neocities proper, but isn't there a storage quota to keep in mind? And something about certain filetypes not being allowed... i think. Could be good to know before i try to push my 200GB .exe collection hehe Added you! And yeah, neocities only allows 1G storage for the free tier... could maybe think about people hotlinking images hosted on their own sites or on separate image hosts or something down the line, though it should be okay for now. I'd be okay with using a different host eventually, but this seemed reasonable for the first step. Neocities file type restrictions are here -- neocities is only static webhosting too, so anything interactive would have to be via javascript or such It's an interesting question, about the purpose of the thing. I think it's a good idea - it's something to do together, where everyone whos participating has some kind of joint authorship. Although yeah, you've taken on some administrative tasks already in setting this up (thanks!!!), and i imagine there are some things like approving pull requests and such that'll get messy if there's a lot of attention... But if you view it as an experiment of sorts, can we collaborate this way, are the tools and workflow allright, i believe it's worthwhile. Yeah, I guess the concern is like, if this actually does grow into something large, maybe there should be more thought into design/organization/purpose... but also it's probably too early to worry about any of that
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sixeyes
Web Surfer
what's going on lol
Posts: 18
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Post by sixeyes on May 3, 2023 6:19:45 GMT
Added you! And yeah, neocities only allows 1G storage for the free tier... could maybe think about people hotlinking images hosted on their own sites or on separate image hosts or something down the line, though it should be okay for now. I'd be okay with using a different host eventually, but this seemed reasonable for the first step. Neocities file type restrictions are here -- neocities is only static webhosting too, so anything interactive would have to be via javascript or such Ah, thank you! A gigabyte is plenty for now i should think. It's probably good to keep it relatively simple as well, filetype limitations seem reasonable as they are. And yeah, thanks for adding me! I made a push just to try it... seems to work great! Now to figure out something a little more worthwhile i suppose. Maybe i'll throw together a guide on how to use a GUI. Hehe, idk, fear of the blank page and all that ^^ Yeah, I guess the concern is like, if this actually does grow into something large, maybe there should be more thought into design/organization/purpose... but also it's probably too early to worry about any of that Mmm, that'll have to come later! π EDIT: also! realized i had doxxed myself pretty severely by committing from my work computer, so that's a commit from my-full-name@company.tld π i managed to remedy that with an amend and a force-push (to the main branch no less). nice for me but probably something that should be disabled... (also sorry for wasting pipeline time)
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modro
Web Surfer
Festive vibes in the city...
Posts: 20
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Post by modro on May 3, 2023 13:52:19 GMT
I think github and all this collaboration tools are great. I did not use it in the way intended (just visiting the site, checking info or instructions for apps or installation instructions). this kind of collaborative experiment will help me understand it more, so ill make an account and join in the near future... I was reading on this blog post about the alternatives (didnt know before that github is also from microsoft:-/) blog.edwardloveall.com/lets-make-sure-github-doesnt-become-the-only-optionwhats your take on this issue?
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loaf
Web Surfer
Posts: 14
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Post by loaf on May 4, 2023 2:08:22 GMT
And yeah, thanks for adding me! I made a push just to try it... seems to work great! Now to figure out something a little more worthwhile i suppose. Maybe i'll throw together a guide on how to use a GUI. Hehe, idk, fear of the blank page and all that ^^ EDIT: also! realized i had doxxed myself pretty severely by committing from my work computer, so that's a commit from my-full-name@company.tld π i managed to remedy that with an amend and a force-push (to the main branch no less). nice for me but probably something that should be disabled... (also sorry for wasting pipeline time) Thanks for trying it out, your art is cute! glad you were able to catch the self-dox, and thanks for letting me know, I've disabled force-pushing. also I think my message about pipeline time is outdated, turns out that my personal site, where the pipeline also uses jekyll to build my site, takes a minute, but the web-raft site which skips that step only takes a few seconds. So I wouldn't worry too much about pipeline time I think github and all this collaboration tools are great. I did not use it in the way intended (just visiting the site, checking info or instructions for apps or installation instructions). this kind of collaborative experiment will help me understand it more, so ill make an account and join in the near future... I was reading on this blog post about the alternatives (didnt know before that github is also from microsoft:-/) blog.edwardloveall.com/lets-make-sure-github-doesnt-become-the-only-optionwhats your take on this issue? yeah I'd be happy to have you! And thanks for linking that blog post, I found it super fascinating. I hadn't really thought about there being other version control software, but obviously there are... I also didn't realize GitHub & GitLab were owned by separate companies, whoops. For the purposes of this project, I'm thinking the main goal is making site collaboration accessible, and given there are a lot of resources for GitHub & that many people are already familiar with it, using GitHub makes the most sense. Though, it would be interesting to try one of these other programs down the line -- I ended up reading about Pijul, and found the ease of cherry-picking to be appealing
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Post by Ray on May 4, 2023 13:27:31 GMT
Oooo thank you for setting this up!! Feel free to add me, my github username is clorofolle. What should we do of this site? The fact that it's possible (and pretty easy!) technically is pretty amazing! <3 The strenght of having multiple people contribute with something could mean curating different sections, or we could all collaborate on something in common... What would you like to see from a collaborative website, in terms of content? And yeah, neocities only allows 1G storage for the free tier... could maybe think about people hotlinking images hosted on their own sites or on separate image hosts or something down the line, though it should be okay for now. I'd be okay with using a different host eventually, but this seemed reasonable for the first step. If it helps any, I'm a neocities supporter atm. However, I'm not sure about the kind of work that needs to be done on the side of the person hosting it - I'm still learning and am pretty tech-unsavvy rn :'D
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loaf
Web Surfer
Posts: 14
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Post by loaf on May 4, 2023 15:16:20 GMT
Oooo thank you for setting this up!! Feel free to add me, my github username is clorofolle. What should we do of this site? The fact that it's possible (and pretty easy!) technically is pretty amazing! <3 The strenght of having multiple people contribute with something could mean curating different sections, or we could all collaborate on something in common... What would you like to see from a collaborative website, in terms of content? Added you! For content, I can imagine something akin to the yesterweb zine, with people making essays/art/etc, but also tutorials/guides/resources both on technical things and maybe also community building. As an example, the resources in the thread of building social networks could be a page, where there's a bunch of resources that anyone can add to, and maybe documentation of any attempts and evaluations of success. In terms of collaboration, I could imagine one person making the text of a page, another person adding CSS styling & illustrations, etc. And I do also think there's a lot of possibility for collaborative art/experiments, and the idea of people adding secrets/surprises for the other collaborators also seems fun. We could also maybe make an attached webring of collaborators? If it helps any, I'm a neocities supporter atm. However, I'm not sure about the kind of work that needs to be done on the side of the person hosting it - I'm still learning and am pretty tech-unsavvy rn :'D It would be great if you were willing to host it! All that I'd need from you is for you to make a new site, and then (privately) send me the API key for that site. (you can access it here: neocities.org/settings/your-site-name#api_key) That's it -- I'd just plug that key into the repo as a secret, and then when changes are made to the repo, they'd be pushed to your site instead of the one I made. The API key is basically a password that allows programs to access and edit your site.
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Post by Ray on May 4, 2023 15:51:33 GMT
Added you! For content, I can imagine something akin to the yesterweb zine, with people making essays/art/etc, but also tutorials/guides/resources both on technical things and maybe also community building. As an example, the resources in the thread of building social networks could be a page, where there's a bunch of resources that anyone can add to, and maybe documentation of any attempts and evaluations of success. In terms of collaboration, I could imagine one person making the text of a page, another person adding CSS styling & illustrations, etc. And I do also think there's a lot of possibility for collaborative art/experiments, and the idea of people adding secrets/surprises for the other collaborators also seems fun. We could also maybe make an attached webring of collaborators? Ooo that's fantastic! I imagine there could be a page dedicated to planning things out/requesting a bit of help (like - "hey I added this page, what do you think? Can someone help with the CSS?" "Would you guys like if I added a page on x?") - or would it be best to plan things out on an associated group somewhere else? Personally, I'm all for goofing around and deciding along the way >:3 sending you the api key btw! I've also used "webraft" as a placeholder name, but will gladly rename it if there's a consensus on something cooler :>
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sixeyes
Web Surfer
what's going on lol
Posts: 18
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Post by sixeyes on May 19, 2023 14:42:24 GMT
Oof, sorry i've been inactive! Lots of life stuff suddenly, plus work, etc, i've been stay-in-bed-all-day levels of drained. Anyway i'm working on a guide to using a git gui as well, might be good...? Then i hope to build some things...!
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Post by purelyconstructive on May 22, 2023 19:23:30 GMT
Oof, sorry i've been inactive! Lots of life stuff suddenly, plus work, etc, i've been stay-in-bed-all-day levels of drained. Anyway i'm working on a guide to using a git gui as well, might be good...? Then i hope to build some things...! Can't wait to see the guide and what you build, but more importantly, I hope you get some good rest! It will all be here when you return. If anyone needs some help with using Git and GitHub in the meantime, there are a lot of tutorials on YouTube... Tech With Tim has several: * Git Tutorial for Beginners - GitHub Version Control (24 minutes, 45 seconds) * Git & GitHub in ~30 Minutes (33 minutes, 6 seconds) * Git Tutorial for Beginners - Git & GitHub Fundamentals In Depth (43 minutes, 6 seconds) * Intermediate GitHub Tutorial (41 minutes, 44 seconds) * GitHub Actions (Branch Protection, Automated Testing) - Full Tutorial (29 minutes, 56 seconds) Nick White has one: * Git Tutorial For Dummies (19 minutes, 25 seconds) FreeCodeCamp has one: * Git for Professionals Tutorial - Tools & Concepts for Mastering Version Control with Git (40 minutes, 42 seconds) ...I'm sure there are more. I don't have a lot of familarity with using it yet, but I will try to help as best as I can too. I think github and all this collaboration tools are great. I did not use it in the way intended (just visiting the site, checking info or instructions for apps or installation instructions). this kind of collaborative experiment will help me understand it more, so ill make an account and join in the near future... I was reading on this blog post about the alternatives (didnt know before that github is also from microsoft:-/) blog.edwardloveall.com/lets-make-sure-github-doesnt-become-the-only-optionwhats your take on this issue? Thank you for sharing that blog post modro! Some might already know all of the following, but I feel as if I should mention it here...I think one of the reasons that some people have a strong distrust of GitHub now is because they got bought out by Microsoft in 2018, and they still remember the history... In 1998, there were a set of internal memos leaked from Microsoft. They describe how some within the company found free software (or what some might call "open source") to be a threat. They also described some of the tactics that they used to undermine it. One of those methods was known as " Embrace, Extend, Extinguish". It is exactly what it sounds like. The former CEO of Microsoft, Steve Ballmer, infamously referred to free software as a "cancer". Some programs have a license (e.g.: the General Public License, or GPL) that states that all software that is derived from it must follow the same license. This "self-replicating" feature helps put a stop to situations where companies use free programs and alter them with "proprietary" code to try to take control of their development, like within the above mentioned tactic. As the blog post points out, GitHub is known as "The largest open source community in the world", and the above information might make it seem as if Microsoft's purchase of it was a corporate takeover. The current CEO, Satya Nadella, claims otherwise. But it certainly doesn't help matters when Microsoft, in partnership with OpenAI, seems to have trained the Copilot AI on code from GitHub while ignoring all of the licenses. Much like how Sadness was criticized for using Discord, I wonder if anyone here might be hesitant about using GitHub for the above reasons? People have similar fears over other partnerships between large corporations and "open source" software projects, especially when it comes to the GNU/Linux operating system (e.g.: Microsoft's partnership with Canonical, the publishers of the Ubuntu Linux distribution, and IBM's partnership with the makers of RedHat Linux). A large point of contention is the use of a component called " systemd". Does its use lead to more consistency in order to make it easier for people or is it an attempt to lock people into something to take advantage of them? Are there alternatives available should it start breaking things? Personally, I think it can be very tricky striking a balance in all of this. Some "hard questions" need to be asked from the beginning: * Large centralized platforms are useful to many people because they are designed to be accessible, but does that convenience come at a cost that outweighs the benefits? What leads to those compromises? * Are we trying to migrate out of the systems or change them from within, and what does the long-term strategy for each of those goals look like? Where do they differ?
* With any platform that we use, what is the likelihood that we will eventually be forced to close it or migrate everything to a different system? How can we predict the collapse of a platform or gauge when it becomes too restrictive? * How do our personal needs influence our choice of tools? How does this affect the communities based off of them? Etc. As the Summary points out, a lot of the issues are not so much technological as they are cultural [or if I was going to be super-pedantic about it, "it is dependent upon the psychosocial norms within a given organizational structure"]. Technology only seems to amplify it. ...Sorry to go on and on. I have a lot of ideas and research about this subject, but I do not want to monopolize the conversation. Also, I want to mention that none of the above is a criticism of the efforts that loaf has put forth. I am sincerely grateful for the initiative and I am excited to see this project grow. Making a collaborative website together through version control software makes perfect sense. We don't have to "reinvent the wheel" if teams of programmers already use it effectively. We can easily backup all of the work and migrate elsewhere if necessary. There are even options for those that might want to self-host all of it.
I will continue to contemplate other methods for doing collaborative work as well.
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π
²ππ
Έπ
Web Surfer
π½ π³οΈβπ π³οΈββ§οΈ
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Public email: spacebar.qt@protonmail.com
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Post by π
²ππ
Έπ on Jun 5, 2023 19:35:59 GMT
The focus is on Microsoft Comic Chat, an IRC client, of which I'm also a huge fan. MS comic chat is still alive, people! The collaborators of this website have been huge players in keeping this abandonware alive and preserving much of the art that was once lost.
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loaf
Web Surfer
Posts: 14
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Post by loaf on Jun 17, 2023 18:25:05 GMT
Much like how Sadness was criticized for using Discord, I wonder if anyone here might be hesitant about using GitHub for the above reasons? ... Personally, I think it can be very tricky striking a balance in all of this. Some "hard questions" need to be asked from the beginning: * Large centralized platforms are useful to many people because they are designed to be accessible, but does that convenience come at a cost that outweighs the benefits? What leads to those compromises? * Are we trying to migrate out of the systems or change them from within, and what does the long-term strategy for each of those goals look like? Where do they differ?
* With any platform that we use, what is the likelihood that we will eventually be forced to close it or migrate everything to a different system? How can we predict the collapse of a platform or gauge when it becomes too restrictive? * How do our personal needs influence our choice of tools? How does this affect the communities based off of them? Etc. Thanks for asking all of these questions; GitHub feels like such a monopoly and a 'default' in my mind for this type of thing, that considering other options never really came to mind. But I guess that's what a lot of this is all about, questioning our assumptions, learning to engage in the internet differently and so on and so forth. I'll throw out a few miscellaneous thoughts that probe at your questions a bit. I do think ultimately it would be very easy to migrate to another platform -- gitlab, bitbucket (probably others) all use git. And I'm sure it's possible to self-host, and run your own local git server on a self-hosted machine. So given that this project is right now tiny, GitHub still does seem to be the most sensible option, and I don't think we're locking ourselves into anything. In terms of the compromise with convenience, given that there hasn't been much traction yet at all, I feel that if we go one step further into unfamiliar territory, we'll probably lose even more possibility of people contributing. Once we actually have a community building this site, then we could discuss migration. Asking a layperson to learn a new version control system, or use an under-documented platform... I feel as though that's the sort of thing we would have to ease people into. For instance, I was interested in Retroshare, but technical difficulties and frustration sapped my enthusiasm to use it, and I've been putting off giving it another go for a while now. If a community has sufficient expertise/technical barriers, only people that can get past them will be in that community, and then there will probably be a lack of diversity of experience/opinion/etc. (personally, I think I'm a lot more willing to compromise for convenience than a lot of people in this community -- I'd be fine with a small discord server, honestly. primarily b/c all of my other communities use it actively, and I value the community more than I care about the issues with the platform - but I definitely understand and accept the critiques and hesitance) In terms of long term goals, my only vision for the website right now is to have people using it to make something neat. I envision as the website maybe as a stepping stone in terms of transitioning away from centralized sites to more community-oriented alternative ways of engaging with the internet, but probably not as the nexus of this community/movement/etc. And then in terms of personal needs -- I don't always have the time/interest to dive super deep into new tech I'm not familiar with. I have fun sometimes, but I don't have like, a deep love for programming or network technologies. So I recognize that I'll often lean towards what's the easiest option (which, for me, would be GitHub) If we're trying to transition away from personal projects done in isolation to community-oriented projects, there's a big question of how to do that equitably. Because building some sophisticated platform is something that would take a ton of work, and a platform can't truly be decentralized if a handful of people are the only ones maintaining it. Maybe not as relevant to this project in particular, as maintaining this one is simple, moreso thinking in general. Some other ideas, tangential to your questions: - Brainstorming more in regards to barriers to entry, there could also be a system of submitting full HTML pages that could be tacked onto the website, an alternative process for people not ready to learn version control / people that don't want to use git.
- If we want the website to gain any sort of traction, we'd probably want to promote it a bit on our own sites or some such -- maybe a button or banner or webring.
Also, thank you as always for having such thoughtful and researched answers throughout the forum! I haven't had the time to engage as deeply as I'd like with many of them, but I have enjoyed reading them!
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Post by purelyconstructive on Jun 19, 2023 19:38:09 GMT
Thanks for asking all of these questions; GitHub feels like such a monopoly and a 'default' in my mind for this type of thing, that considering other options never really came to mind. But I guess that's what a lot of this is all about, questioning our assumptions, learning to engage in the internet differently and so on and so forth. I'll throw out a few miscellaneous thoughts that probe at your questions a bit... I'm sorry. I hope you did not feel "put on the spot" by the list of questions. They were intended as general topics to explore together as a group, and I only realized afterwards that it might have come off as an interrogation about the collaborative website. I really appreciate your answers though! I feel similarly in many ways. Retroshare seems like such an interesting platform; I wish I could get it working better as well. Trying to make it easier for people to get involved by lowering the barrier of entry to various technologies and practices is something that I like to focus on. Earlier, when you had mentioned... ...For content, I can imagine something akin to the yesterweb zine, with people making essays/art/etc, but also tutorials/guides/resources both on technical things and maybe also community building... ...I got excited and immediately thought of two things. The first was a book called " Your Linux Toolbox" by Julia Evans. It is a collection of fun little zines that cover some of the more esoteric aspects of Linux through doodles and handwritten explanations. Example page: It might look silly, but it is a wonderful demonstration of how one can take a topic that seems complex and make it digestible, breaking it down into step-by-step processes and helpful visuals. The next thought was that there is a rich collection of zines available on Internet Archive that can also serve as inspiration: * Some are quick overviews of important subjects (e.g.: A Hastily Assembled Guide to Climate Disaster) * Some approach useful skills from a DIY perspective (e.g.: An Herbal Medicine-Making Primer) * Some have information directly relevant to the building of communities (e.g.: Collective Process) * Some have an interesting purpose or philosophy behind them that complements all of this (e.g.: Eco-Ideas) ...and so on. I think zines could help constructively transform how many organizations operate from the inside-out (including online groups). They also seem like a good medium to fuse together many different interests (e.g.: the social with the technical, the artistic with the logical, etc.). Ultimately, I wonder what would a "new web" zine consist of? I have some ideas of what I would include, but I am interested in what everyone else has to say about it. Perhaps this sort of brainstorming could help inspire people to use the website more too. Also, thank you as always for having such thoughtful and researched answers throughout the forum! I haven't had the time to engage as deeply as I'd like with many of them, but I have enjoyed reading them! And thank you so much for taking the time to read them!
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loaf
Web Surfer
Posts: 14
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Post by loaf on Jun 20, 2023 0:43:23 GMT
I'm sorry. I hope you did not feel "put on the spot" by the list of questions. They were intended as general topics to explore together as a group, and I only realized afterwards that it might have come off as an interrogation about the collaborative website. I really appreciate your answers though! I feel similarly in many ways. No worries, I understood the intention! I was mostly aiming to throw out my thoughts/perspective into the group as well. Ultimately, I wonder what would a "new web" zine consist of? I have some ideas of what I would include, but I am interested in what everyone else has to say about it. Perhaps this sort of brainstorming could help inspire people to use the website more too. Yeah, there's a lot of directions to take it -- not sure if there's a concrete "call to action" we'd want to include (here are instructions on how to do X) or something more abstract. Maybe a guide on how to use the internet, but in ways that it can bring you joy? Something to address the fact that google searching content is no longer feasible, given the amount of SEO spam, and alternatives/resources to use. Guides to seek out / build communities, how to explore less-centralized social media, rules for good-faith based discourse online, deprogramming in regards to the additive & conflict oriented state of social media. Or on the flip side, it can also just be people presenting different ideas/visions for the future of the internet, showing things they've made (both as individuals and communities?). Managing to find an optimistic path forward rather than fixating on the decay. My mind tends to jump towards details of format, in terms of a digital zine. Hypertextual connections, i.e. the web garden, different pockets of ideas connecting to each other, something along those lines...
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